Get Fit Slowly

20 responses so far ↓

• 1 greenman2001 // Jun 5, 2008 at 9:25 am

  Mac, do you intend to actually follow the advice in the NYT article?

  Is it possible that JD’s injury was caused by pushing too hard too quickly? How would you determine that? The goals that you and JD set for yourselves frequently strike me as being completely arbitrary. Where did the “pace” goals for the race come from? He was sick to his stomach the entire race, which suggests, among other things, that the pace was too “fast,” but I have no idea what criteria you are using, or what criteria one should use. An informed post on this would help readers who want to emulate what you’re doing without injury or unpleasant side effects. You’re role models now!

• 2 macdaddy // Jun 5, 2008 at 12:38 pm

  as far as race pacing goes. I based mine on my recent training times on both the treadmill and the road. I had been doing so much running that I knew what was difficult for me to do and what was easy for me to do. I wanted to push myself in the race, but not to the point where I puked. I managed that quite well I think. I can’t speak for JD, but I think he based his goal on pushing himself a little more than he did when he “trained” on the exact same course as the race only 1 week prior. I don’t think either of us pulled a random number out of our heads for our desired race outcomes.
  Also, regarding this specific article, I believe that I’ve already stated that I plan on replacing many of the calories that I burn during exercise immediately after I exercise so that I won’t feel starving and begin over eating. I don’t know if I’m going to follow the 2.5:1 ratio of carbs to protein, but we’ll see. And if I’m eating properly, I’m never really more than 2-3 hours away from a balanced meal so that part will take care of itself. Right?

• 3 J.D. // Jun 5, 2008 at 3:14 pm

  I believe my injury stems from one of two sources: overtraining and/or poor form. I think both are likely sources. What’s especially frustrating is that I’d already mentally scaled back my exercise levels. After that race, I had intended to take several days off, and then pursue a pretty relaxed routine for a couple weeks. Ugh. Shouldn’t have done the race.

  Why do the goals strike you as arbitrary? In the absence of a better guide, I ran the race a week in advance at a fair clip (for me). After that, I decided that I could probably improve my time by a few minutes.

  I’m convinced that my discomfort during the race is much more related to my food and water intake in the 24 hours before than to any other factor.

  All the same, as I recover from this injury (and I’m trying to figure out a doctor I can go see with my insurance), then I’m going to be more methodical in the future. This is how we learn!

• 4 greenman2001 // Jun 5, 2008 at 5:23 pm

  Mac, why do you not plan to follow the 2.5:1 ratio?

  You guys are starting to get into more serious training, and you should do yourself the favor of reading a book called Nutrient Timing by John Ivy and Robert Portman, both Ph.Ds. They clearly explain the science behind the 2.5:1 ratio and other aspects of nutrition for athletic training. It’s a great, great book, especially for giving you an understanding of fundamental body science in order to evaluate the often-confusing advice that gets handed out about this stuff. One point they make is that the window of advantageous nutrition intervention closes after 2 hours. Not 2-3 hrs, Mac. Two hours.

  And no aspect of your approach “takes care of itself.” It’s all-willpower for you: you’ve implemented no automatic systems. Are you actually eating every 2-3 hrs? From your posts you seem to be frequently hungry, while at the same time not losing weight. Something isn’t quite adding up.

  Back in your March 4 post, JD, you stated the following goals: Portland Marathon on Oct 5, and Bike Oregon on September 6. You decided to follow Bill Phillips plan, and a 16-week marathon training schedule described in a book called The Non-Runner’s Marathon Trainer. So, perhaps not arbitrary. The Oct 5 and Sept 6 goals seem arbitrary to me, although I suppose if someone who’s written a book says a non-runner can be ready for a marathon in 16 weeks, who am I to say otherwise? Other experienced runners on the blog cautioned you that you were training too fast. I also had trouble following your reasoning for moving up into the faster training groups on the schedule you did. You seemed to feel that the slow group was “too slow” or else that you were somehow short-changing yourself by not taking the opportunity to move up to a faster group.

  I loved the fact that you ran the course a week in advance. That’s the essence of careful, thoughtful, informed preparation — excellent work. But I’m confused by the desire to improve your time by a few minutes, particularly when during the race you began feeling sick to your stomach. I’m working from a basic assumption that you don’t seem to share: there is such a thing as training too hard, or too fast, and that there’s NO ADVANTAGE to doing so. None. When you train too hard or too fast, you increase the likelihood of injuring yourself or not enjoying the journey. Your approach seems to be to push yourself as hard as you can as quickly as you can, going for short-term gratification rather than taking an organized, slow, steady, long-term approach.

  See, I keep coming back to the fact that 95% of people who try to get fit or lose weight FAIL. I think the standard way of approaching these goals are fundamentally flawed. When I see you taking an approach that is full of risk and seems poorly informed, I worry that you will create an insurmountable obstacle, and that your readers will try the same approach and also fail. When Mac says, “I’m going to start working out intensely and maintain a calorie deficit at the same time, so that I can meet a completely arbitrary goal of 2 lbs of weight loss a week,” I groan, knowing that this is the path 95% of people take when they set out to lose weight. Now Mac is saying, “why should I eat a meal with a 2.5:1 carb/protein ration within 2 hrs of working out? I’ve already got a plan. It’s not working for me, but so what? It was working for me in January, when I wasn’t working out as hard — why should I change it? I need to just double-down on this bet, toughen my resolve. It’s a willpower problem, not a strategy problem.”

  You’re injured. Now you’re going to have to slow down. You may miss your Oct 5 goal. Maybe you’ll run the marathon in March. If you had set out to run the Marathon in March, you would have increased your training pace much, much more slowly and avoided injury. This might have been a more boring blog to read, too.

  It’s also interesting to me that, where weight training is concerned, you seem perfectly content to go very slowly and steadily. Every serious training theory supports this approach. If I’m not mistaken, you’ve built a good foundation and have seen some modest gains without pain or injury. That’s a tremendous success. Kind of boring, though, isn’t it? — “today, after eight weeks, I moved up from 7.5 lb dumbells to 15 lb dumbells.” Give me boring ANY DAY.

  When, in your May 15th post, you wrote sensibly about your exercise load, “… it’s not sustainable. I’m getting ahead of myself. What I need is balance” — how did that sentiment inform your desire to shave some time off your race pace? What does balance mean to you, JD? Is your approach really going to be: push yourself to the point of near-injury, then back off a hair? For 40 more years?

• 5 greenman2001 // Jun 5, 2008 at 6:12 pm

  Mac, thanks for clarifying how you established your pace. It seems pretty sensible. Your exercise posts are very different from JD’s, in part because you don’t seem to have encountered a lot of pain or injury-related pain. You seem strong, and, of course, you’re only 34. You don’t seem to have been confronted yet with any ominous signs of potential injury or with a decision about the need to ease off in your training. I predict that your competitiveness will lead you eventually to injury, but I’m glad that hasn’t happened yet. You’ve indicated that competition and goals helps to motivate you: I’m in favor of anything that helps motivation.

• 6 Jeremy // Jun 5, 2008 at 7:27 pm

  I generally follow the drink while exercising philosophy religiously and have yet to be injured except for the repetitive motion stress injury in my elbow from bringing the wine glass to my mouth. Man that hurts

• 7 J.D. // Jun 5, 2008 at 8:50 pm

  You make some excellent points, as always, Greenman. And I appreciate your concern.

  I don’t discount your warnings (and those of other readers), but the real trouble is I don’t know exactly what my body is or is not capable of yet. I think my biggest mistake is telling myself, “Yes, I can sense that I need to back off, but I’ll wait a couple weeks until the race is over.” Obviously, this was dumb. And maybe some of you who are more experienced with exercise could tell that it was dumb. But for me, it seemed to make sense. Though I knew I was pushing myself, I hadn’t yet felt anything like an injury, at least not physically. (Maybe my mind was telling me something, however.)

  When I set out, I didn’t view October 5th as an unreasonable goal for a marathon because nearly everything I’ve read (and been told) seems to indicate that with a sensible approach, it isn’t unreasonable. Was I wrong to bump up from the 5:00 pace group to the 4:30 page group? I don’t know. Maybe I was. Part of making this work, however, is dealing with my own personal psychology. If I’m running with the 5:00 group and not enjoying it, should I continue? If I run with the 4:30 pace group and having a blast, should I drop back down?

  For me, for who I am, psychology plays a vital role in motivation. But I’m learning that they physical J.D. is important, too. I’m learning that there’s a connection between the mind and the body, and not just in a spiritual sense. By pushing beyond what my body could do (in order to placate my mind), I’ve hurt myself. The ramifications are severe: I haven’t run in nearly two weeks, and I suspect it may be another month before I get a chance to do so. I did the stationary bike for an hour yesterday, which only made my leg feel worse. So, at last, I’m overcoming my stubborn inherited anti-doctor streak and trying to get an appointment with somebody who specializes in sports medicine.

  Anyhow, I don’t have time for a longer reply. I still don’t have tomorrow’s GRS entry written and it’s almost ten. I sometimes feel, Greenman, as if you’re expecting perfection from us, or expecting us to do things the way you would do them. That’s a lot of pressure! I like that you (and other readers) are here to keep us accountable — you just need to know that I’m going to make mistakes along the way. It’s how I learn.

• 8 Noah // Jun 5, 2008 at 10:34 pm

  I’m no exercise guru, but I’m surprised by JD’s “I don’t know my limits yet” comment. Why would you need to push yourself to the max at any point? Isn’t this Get Fit -Slowly-?

  To tell the truth, I do know where JD is coming from, because I would be doing this project in a similar way. But, that’s why I read you guys. Theoretically I’m learning how people do things a different(healthier) way, i.e. slowly. Ease up friends, so we can keep reading about your slow progress.

• 9 brad // Jun 6, 2008 at 5:05 am

  There’s a new article in the NY Times about this, which casts doubt on a lot of the conventional wisdom on post-exercise nutrition:

  http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/05/health/nutrition/05Best.html?ex=1370404800&en=b18a01a83c755d7f&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

  A few quotes:

  he idea that what you eat and when you eat it will make a big difference in your performance and recovery “is wishful thinking,” said Dr. Rennie, a 61-year-old who was a competitive swimmer and also used to play water polo and rugby.

  Dr. Rennie said that 10 to 15 grams of protein is probably adequate for any adult. And you don’t need a special drink or energy bar to get it. One egg has 6 grams of protein. Two ounces of chicken has more than 12 grams. Muscles also need to replenish glycogen, their fuel supply, after a long exercise session — two hours of running, for example. For that they need carbohydrates. Muscle cells are especially efficient in absorbing carbohydrates from the blood just after exercise. Once again, muscles don’t need much; about one gram of carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight is plenty, Dr. Tarnopolsky said. He weighs 70 kilograms, or 154 pounds, which means he would need 70 grams of carbohydrates, or say, 27 ounces of fruit juice, he said.

• 10 greenman2001 // Jun 6, 2008 at 5:38 am

  Thanks for your honest response, JD. No matter how aggravated I get with what I read here sometimes, you always win me over with your fearlessness and honesty.

  I don’t expect perfection from you. I expect you to practice what you preach. When you’re not doing so, I feel like I’m being marketed a fake product. A kid’s toy with lead paint.

  And I think you did discount the warnings of your readers. You discounted the warnings your own body was sending you. You discounted your own intuitive sense that you were pushing too hard. You went so far as to write here that you were going to back off, and you didn’t do so.

  This is a hugely important issue, because that’s the same impulse that causes you to pour a glass of milk over a piece of chocolate cake and eat it for breakfast. I enjoy reading about your stats, and even I, Mr. Cautious, gets excited to hear about your super performance. But what I really want to hear about is the confrontation between JD and JD at the moment one of them says, “Yes, I can sense that I need to back off,” and the other replies, “but I’ll wait a couple weeks until the race is over.” That is the conversation ALL of us have, in all sorts of areas of our lives, that leads to “success” or “failure” in our endeavors.

  Willpower is a funny thing. When it’s “weak” the tasks that depend on it don’t get done. But when it’s “strong” it permits you to violate your own better judgment. Move up to the 4:30 group? Why not? I feel motivated today. Let’s take it to the next level! I need to find out what I’m capable of! This is going to make a great blog post! It fuels impulsiveness in both directions.

  We’re both fans of George Leonard, who wrote Mastery and is a black belt in aikido. In aikido, you learn how to fight. But a fundamental tenet of aikido is that fighting is a sign of personal failure. Your goal in aikido is to resolve the conflict without fighting: if you fight you have failed. This takes discipline, skill, and above all, practice. The idea that you put forth here, that you “don’t know” what you’re body is capable of, and that you must push to find your limit, is a very thorny, problematic idea. Fitness isn’t about pushing your body to its limit. You might say that fitness is about avoiding a fight. As you learned, in the short-term you’re capable of a tremendous effort — a fight — but in the long-term your own fitness is compromised. Running a marathon is, from what I’m told, about pacing yourself, about specifically managing short-term thinking, disciplining it to achieve a long-term goal. (So is dieting: dieting might be said to be about organizing a series of short-term decisions in service of a long-term outcome.)

  I wonder if you can think of strategies that acknowledge your own impulsiveness and other deep-rooted qualities — your fear of being bored, your need for goals, your love of data, and so forth — and put together a plan that honors and works with those qualities instead of overcoming them with willpower. A way of meeting your nutrition and calorie requirements while the chocolate cake is right out there in front of you.

  Because in the contest between willpower and desire, willpower will fail.

  I really love when we have these exchanges right out in the blog, JD! Thanks!

• 11 greenman2001 // Jun 6, 2008 at 5:42 am

  Brad, read Nutrient Timing and see if you still agree.

• 12 brad // Jun 6, 2008 at 6:24 am

  Greenman: I think the point of the NYTimes article is that nutrient timing can make a difference in performance, but only for serious athletes (professional or serious amateurs who spend a lot of time training daily). For the rest of us (i.e., those of us who have around 24 hours of rest between workouts), there’s no need to do anything special; a normal diet will provide adequate recovery.

• 13 J.D. // Jun 6, 2008 at 6:39 am

  Ah, now see Greenman: that is constructive. Drawing parallels between my actions and the processes described by George Leonard is an excellent way to get me to see what I’m doing wrong. I’m not enjoying the plateau. Like you said earlier, I seem to be fine with the plateau when I’m lifting weights (speaking of which — I need to get to the gym!), but for some reason, I kept trying to push higher with running instead of looking for my natural level. (Well, actually, I pushed beyond my natural level and was ready to settle back down to find it when injury struck. I should have settled earlier.)

• 14 greenman2001 // Jun 6, 2008 at 7:56 am

  It’s the mysterious “for some reason” that I’d like to hear you get at.

  When exactly were you stuck on a plateau?

• 15 Anonymous // Jun 6, 2008 at 1:21 pm

  Um, greenman2001? Why don’t you get your own blog? Why do you need to write these long scrutinizing comments that are longer than the original posts?

• 16 Harm // Jun 6, 2008 at 1:37 pm

  I’ve been concentrating on a fairly long
  warm up and cool down….10 to 15 minutes
  walking before and after my runs. That’s
  a substantial investment in time, I know, but
  if you HAVE the time, I’d recommend it….

• 17 Pam // Jun 6, 2008 at 1:37 pm

  I have been working a bit with JD some on his training, and so I have my two cents.

  I don’t think Oct. 5 is arbitrary or if it is, it is no more arbitrary than picking a date a year from now. In order to train properly for a marathon, you need to know when you are going to do the race so you can schedule your workouts. The Portland marathon is the Big One in our neck of the woods, so it seems reasonable to target that race. I did think a 16 week training program was too short and I strongly urged JD to start sooner, before he had finished Body for Life. Fortunately, he agreed and started training almost ten weeks ahead of schedule. On JD’s original plan, he wouldn’t have even started his training till next week!

  I was not opposed to JD moving up a speed group and I still don’t think it was a bad move. JD told me he thought the slow group was too slow. The goal of the slow run is to be at around 70-80% effort level. This is fast enough to get a good workout and strengthen muscles, but is not an overly taxing pace. Maybe I should have followed up with JD to see if his heart rate monitor supported this move, but by his reports he was feeling good and seemed to be able to do the rest of his workouts in the week without much difficulty.

  I think JD was ready to race a 10k distance on Memorial day. I think there were essentially two things that were not thought out well, and may have contributed to injury.

  1)Pace - I saw times Mac ran in workouts and I think his goal time was very reasonable and not too far off his workout paces. JD’s goal time was a lot faster than his workout paces. In fact his goal time was originally 75 minutes based on his workouts; he dropped it to 60 as the race got closer - that’s a huge jump! Also, I think JD started the race at a pace that was way too fast for him - his heart rate monitor supports this as does his feeling of unease and sickness. Even in a race, you need to pick a pace you can maintain. If not, you are just putting extra stress on your body and setting yourself up for a poor performance.

  2) Hills - JD says he is not a good down hill runner. From what I gather, only one training run had downhills and those were run in a clumsy manner, without concentrating on form or getting better at running downhill. Going downhill is probably the most stressful thing you can do while running and JD had essentially NO practice before attempting to RACE downhill at maximum speed.

  JD thinks food and drink from the day before were too blame for feeling sick during the race - I am not sure how much I buy into this. I do think JD sometimes undervalues sleep and I don’t think going into a race fatigued from sleep deprivation would have helped matters, but I don’t know what his actual sleep habits were leading up to the race.

  In short, I don’t think JD’s training plan was as aggressive as it is being made out. And I don’t think it was a bad idea to do a 10k at that point either. I think he was ready, but for a FLAT 10k. And I think he (we?) should have thought a little more about pacing and how hard and fast he should be pushing himself at that point.

• 18 Pam // Jun 6, 2008 at 1:44 pm

  PS - sorry for that long scrutinizing comment that was longer than the original post.

• 19 J.D. // Jun 6, 2008 at 3:12 pm

  This will probably come as no surprise, but I think Pam’s evaluation of my training and injury are spot-on. She and I have talked (and exchanged e-mail) extensively about this. She is my coach, after all. I agree with everything she said: my problems came from going too fast, from not knowing how to run hills, and probably even from not enough rest. (Though I tried to get some sleep.) I’m certain, though, that the food leading up to the race was a problem — I had indigestion the whole time. I ate a lot the day before which, in retrospect, was dumb.

  Anyhow, the real reason I came here was to report on my injury.

  So today I’m getting a revealing look at my (lack of) though process. Today, there’s been vast improvement in my leg. In fact, just now I spent several minutes downstairs cleaning with no pain at all. And when I walked upstairs to write this update, there was only a little twinge.

  So, of course, what’s my first reaction? “I can run tomorrow.” That’s right. After two weeks off, I want to get back out and run tomorrow morning, even though my injury has only been dormant for a couple hours. I keep telling myself that I’d only run the shortest distance (12 miles, I think) and I’d do it with the five hour group. A part of me knows this is stupid, but another part of me really wants to do it.

  See, I can’t run next Saturday because I have other plans. That means the soonest I could rejoin the group is June 21st unless I go tomorrow. That’s basically a month off from the long-distance runs. And so I want to run tomorrow.

  Fortunately, I think the sensible side has a 90% chance of winning out in this case, maybe higher. But the unsensible side is being very vocal in my mind right now. “Run!” it says. “Run!”

• 20 greenman2001 // Jun 8, 2008 at 7:09 am

  Pam: thanks! What you’ve written here sounds absolutely logical and correct.

  I think (and have experienced) a danger point with injuries when the injury feels better but isn’t yet healed. It’s a very challenging point on the continuum. Just say no, dude.

  Have you read Haruki Murakami’s wonderful piece about long-distance running in the June 1 New Yorker? It’s called “The Running Novelist.” I think you’ll find a lot to enjoy in it.

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